(Now that I've scanned the contributions to see if someone beat me to suggesting:)
...sorry, my candidate lived to the same year Bobby Lee did, 1870. He was the first Admiral in the USN, which made him the first Latino admiral. His dad, Jordi Farragut Mesquida, was a Latino immigrant who liked the USA so much he Anglicized his name.
He might have been martyred if one of those torpedoes had damned him in Mobile Bay. I'll wait eagerly for the next contest.
Robert Anderson perhaps? But I doubt anyone really remembers him, they just remember that For Sumter was the start of the war.
Clara Barton comes to mind, if you stretch your definition of military service to those civilians who served in roles that would today be part of the military.
Thanks for the recommendation! I haven't been to DC since I was in high school back in the 90s. I'm probably due for another visit. Though I live in SC and there are a few places I need to visit here first, particularly The Reconstruction Era National Historical Park.
I agree with others who state that many non-buffs would recognize stories, but not names. Chamberlain’s story was recounted in an episode of Homeland (I know it was a few years ago, but still being streamed). He is apparently still in public memory.
Likewise, I would add the crew of the Hunley; in Tennessee & Georgia I would add the men of the Great Locomotive Chase. Older folks might remember Grierson’s Raid, but not in name - they would know it as (albeit, loosely) John Wayne’s The Horse Soldiers. Some might remember Mosby.
Although most people wouldn’t remember them for their Civil War exploits, they would remember these guys for using irregular cavalry tactics and becoming mythological figures: Frank and Jesse James.
Bottom Line: Unless the basis of a popular movie or TV show, not likely to be well-known.
Thanks for the question and for allowing another voice into the conversation. :-)
Thanks for the reminder re: Chamberlain and Homeland.
I tend to think that the Hunley crew resonates for a select group these days. The James brothers are certainly in a league of their own, but that has little to do with the Civil War. You are right that the role of media plays an important role in elevating certain individuals/stories above others.
This is a thought provoking question Kevin...honorable mention to John Brown who could qualify except for the date restriction. Then I thought of Alonzo Cushing for his actions at Gettysburg which eventually led to the Medal of Honor (150 years later!!). Then I thought to myself, has Shaw received the MoH...which he has not, although there seems to be an effort to do so (via Fordham University as stated in Shaw's Wiki entry). To answer your question, I think Shaw has unique qualifications that set him apart from others (like Cushing), including a recent movie. Kevin, have you considered using your book as a source material for Shaw to receive the Medal of Honor?
I was actually contacted a couple years ago by an individual who is campaigning for a MOH for Shaw. Perhaps I will touch base with him again. Great idea.
I think Ken Burns made several names---Sam Watkins, Elisha Hunt Rhoades, Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain---very well-known, but I am not sure many "non-buffs" would recognize any of them. But I am also not sure they would recognize Shaw. I do think they could recall "the guy who led that black regiment attacking that fort and was killed." Shaw was a major figure in a well-made and critically acclaimed movie, in addition to his brief mention in the Burns series, but I am pessimistic that he really is all that well-known to the general population.
I agree, though the notoriety of the first two doesn't extend to that of Chamberlain whose popularity, as you well know, is based on the Shaara novel and Ron Maxwell's movie. I also don't want to exaggerate Shaw's notoriety, though it is much longer and was certainly much more pronounced as a result of the 1989 movie. Thanks for the comment, Jim.
I think Grant and Sherman and maybe Custer are the only two united States military figures from the Civil War who register in the popular mind. I suspect Shaw registers to followers of the movie because they follow the movie and to the Civil War community.
I think you are pretty much on target here, but I still think Shaw has a bit more reach, if only because he has occupied a place in Civil War memory for so long.
What an intriguing post. Mind you, what follows is not a nomination or anything. I'm just thinking out loud. I wonder if the name Robert Smalls should at least get discussed here, even though his connections to both the Army and the Navy were so unusual, in fact pretty much unprecedented, naturally, and in any case complicated.
You exclude flag officers, and he did reach flag rank, but not during the war, I believe. People don't always know--as indeed I didn't know when I was first a young naval officer aboard ships--that the Army has its own logistics ships. One of them was named the USAV Major General Robert Smalls--the first Army ship named after an African American, Wikipedia says. And last year, thanks to the Naming Commission, the Navy's guided missile cruiser USS Chancellorsville was renamed USS Robert Smalls.
But again, I don't presume to know how to assess the relative popularity thing. I just thought that maybe the name should come up here, at least, in any case. Thanks.
It's encouraging to see that Small has received more attention in recent years, but I think his reach is still limited. Certainly, his legacy is visible in the Beaufort/Port Royal, SC region.
Kevin, as I said, I think you and others would be better judges of relative popularity and awareness than I would. But as an old sailor, from a Navy family, I can't help posting the reminder that the man has an Army ship and a major naval combatant ship named after him. That's national, not local.
But then, the nation doesn't focus intently on ship names, usually--and anyway, I should also stipulate that I have a distinct additional bias to boot, besides my military one. It's as seen in the running footer on my own posts: "Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that Americans will esteem the multitudes of freedom-striving, emancipation-forcing Civil War slavery escapees. Just not yet."
I'll bet we agree on Small as a leading example of such an escapee and--supporting your view in this discussion--on the second sentence of that footer (whatever your additional view of the need for the esteem that I decry as missing and withheld, but inevitable).
(By the way, I did a posting not on the AHA preview summary directly, but on your recent posting about it.)
Make no mistake, I think public acknowledgement of Smalls is long overdue. Thanks for reminding me of the ships named in his honor. It is certainly an appropriate honor.
I think Ken Burns made famous the names of Elijah Hunt Rhodes and Sam Watkins but I’d be hard pressed to say that they’re more famous than Colonel Shaw.
Is the question “famous FOR their service” or famous people who served? I’d think that perhaps Jesse James or Mark Twain might fit in the latter but they weren’t famous so much for their wartime exploits.
Famous FOR their wartime service. Thanks for fleshing this question out for me. I should have taken more time to frame it. I am also only interested in Union soldiers/officers.
Plus: Didn't Sam desert from the guerilla unit he helped organize?! Didn't his entire unit fade away into the countryside, in Sam's case, all the way to Nevada?
OTOH, Kevin, when you're not busy (this guarantees the following idea will never be started), create a new unrelated category for Notable Confederates who did the very least to aid the subversive cause?
Then we can put Sam at the top of that list. No, maybe he'd get competition from Braxton Bragg partisans.
I actually have a serious contribution to be added once I scan the list of suggestions.
(Now that I've scanned the contributions to see if someone beat me to suggesting:)
...sorry, my candidate lived to the same year Bobby Lee did, 1870. He was the first Admiral in the USN, which made him the first Latino admiral. His dad, Jordi Farragut Mesquida, was a Latino immigrant who liked the USA so much he Anglicized his name.
He might have been martyred if one of those torpedoes had damned him in Mobile Bay. I'll wait eagerly for the next contest.
Robert Anderson perhaps? But I doubt anyone really remembers him, they just remember that For Sumter was the start of the war.
Clara Barton comes to mind, if you stretch your definition of military service to those civilians who served in roles that would today be part of the military.
I think you are right about Anderson, but I agree with you re: Barton. A must see is the Clara Barton Museum in D.C. It's a real gem.
Thanks for the recommendation! I haven't been to DC since I was in high school back in the 90s. I'm probably due for another visit. Though I live in SC and there are a few places I need to visit here first, particularly The Reconstruction Era National Historical Park.
I agree with others who state that many non-buffs would recognize stories, but not names. Chamberlain’s story was recounted in an episode of Homeland (I know it was a few years ago, but still being streamed). He is apparently still in public memory.
Likewise, I would add the crew of the Hunley; in Tennessee & Georgia I would add the men of the Great Locomotive Chase. Older folks might remember Grierson’s Raid, but not in name - they would know it as (albeit, loosely) John Wayne’s The Horse Soldiers. Some might remember Mosby.
Although most people wouldn’t remember them for their Civil War exploits, they would remember these guys for using irregular cavalry tactics and becoming mythological figures: Frank and Jesse James.
Bottom Line: Unless the basis of a popular movie or TV show, not likely to be well-known.
Thanks for the question and for allowing another voice into the conversation. :-)
Regards,
Mike Szalma
Hi Mike,
Thanks for the reminder re: Chamberlain and Homeland.
I tend to think that the Hunley crew resonates for a select group these days. The James brothers are certainly in a league of their own, but that has little to do with the Civil War. You are right that the role of media plays an important role in elevating certain individuals/stories above others.
This is a thought provoking question Kevin...honorable mention to John Brown who could qualify except for the date restriction. Then I thought of Alonzo Cushing for his actions at Gettysburg which eventually led to the Medal of Honor (150 years later!!). Then I thought to myself, has Shaw received the MoH...which he has not, although there seems to be an effort to do so (via Fordham University as stated in Shaw's Wiki entry). To answer your question, I think Shaw has unique qualifications that set him apart from others (like Cushing), including a recent movie. Kevin, have you considered using your book as a source material for Shaw to receive the Medal of Honor?
Hi James,
I was actually contacted a couple years ago by an individual who is campaigning for a MOH for Shaw. Perhaps I will touch base with him again. Great idea.
I think Ken Burns made several names---Sam Watkins, Elisha Hunt Rhoades, Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain---very well-known, but I am not sure many "non-buffs" would recognize any of them. But I am also not sure they would recognize Shaw. I do think they could recall "the guy who led that black regiment attacking that fort and was killed." Shaw was a major figure in a well-made and critically acclaimed movie, in addition to his brief mention in the Burns series, but I am pessimistic that he really is all that well-known to the general population.
I agree, though the notoriety of the first two doesn't extend to that of Chamberlain whose popularity, as you well know, is based on the Shaara novel and Ron Maxwell's movie. I also don't want to exaggerate Shaw's notoriety, though it is much longer and was certainly much more pronounced as a result of the 1989 movie. Thanks for the comment, Jim.
I think Grant and Sherman and maybe Custer are the only two united States military figures from the Civil War who register in the popular mind. I suspect Shaw registers to followers of the movie because they follow the movie and to the Civil War community.
I think you are pretty much on target here, but I still think Shaw has a bit more reach, if only because he has occupied a place in Civil War memory for so long.
What an intriguing post. Mind you, what follows is not a nomination or anything. I'm just thinking out loud. I wonder if the name Robert Smalls should at least get discussed here, even though his connections to both the Army and the Navy were so unusual, in fact pretty much unprecedented, naturally, and in any case complicated.
You exclude flag officers, and he did reach flag rank, but not during the war, I believe. People don't always know--as indeed I didn't know when I was first a young naval officer aboard ships--that the Army has its own logistics ships. One of them was named the USAV Major General Robert Smalls--the first Army ship named after an African American, Wikipedia says. And last year, thanks to the Naming Commission, the Navy's guided missile cruiser USS Chancellorsville was renamed USS Robert Smalls.
But again, I don't presume to know how to assess the relative popularity thing. I just thought that maybe the name should come up here, at least, in any case. Thanks.
It's encouraging to see that Small has received more attention in recent years, but I think his reach is still limited. Certainly, his legacy is visible in the Beaufort/Port Royal, SC region.
Kevin, as I said, I think you and others would be better judges of relative popularity and awareness than I would. But as an old sailor, from a Navy family, I can't help posting the reminder that the man has an Army ship and a major naval combatant ship named after him. That's national, not local.
But then, the nation doesn't focus intently on ship names, usually--and anyway, I should also stipulate that I have a distinct additional bias to boot, besides my military one. It's as seen in the running footer on my own posts: "Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that Americans will esteem the multitudes of freedom-striving, emancipation-forcing Civil War slavery escapees. Just not yet."
I'll bet we agree on Small as a leading example of such an escapee and--supporting your view in this discussion--on the second sentence of that footer (whatever your additional view of the need for the esteem that I decry as missing and withheld, but inevitable).
(By the way, I did a posting not on the AHA preview summary directly, but on your recent posting about it.)
Steve Corneliussen
Hi Steve,
Make no mistake, I think public acknowledgement of Smalls is long overdue. Thanks for reminding me of the ships named in his honor. It is certainly an appropriate honor.
I think Ken Burns made famous the names of Elijah Hunt Rhodes and Sam Watkins but I’d be hard pressed to say that they’re more famous than Colonel Shaw.
Hi Scott. I thought about them as well, but I don't think they register outside of the Civil War community. Thanks.
Is the question “famous FOR their service” or famous people who served? I’d think that perhaps Jesse James or Mark Twain might fit in the latter but they weren’t famous so much for their wartime exploits.
Famous FOR their wartime service. Thanks for fleshing this question out for me. I should have taken more time to frame it. I am also only interested in Union soldiers/officers.
Plus: Didn't Sam desert from the guerilla unit he helped organize?! Didn't his entire unit fade away into the countryside, in Sam's case, all the way to Nevada?
OTOH, Kevin, when you're not busy (this guarantees the following idea will never be started), create a new unrelated category for Notable Confederates who did the very least to aid the subversive cause?
Then we can put Sam at the top of that list. No, maybe he'd get competition from Braxton Bragg partisans.
I actually have a serious contribution to be added once I scan the list of suggestions.
Kevin, I believe Alonzo W. Adams was more popular than Shaw.
Thanks, dad. Was he one your buddies in South Philly? :-)