Too ridiculous. I’m thankful you’re advising Dr. Douglas.
“The plaintiffs have asked a judge to issue a permanent injunction that would force the city to pay to restore and repair the Lee statue to its original state as a sculpture. If it cannot be repaired and restored, they wrote in the lawsuit, the bronze ingots from the statue should be repurposed into a Civil War cannon that will be donated to display on a Civil War battlefield.” https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2022/06/26/charlottesville-robert-lee-statue-lawsuit/
Just to be clear, it's been a couple years since I corresponded with Dr. Douglas. I just wanted to make the point that she is a professional and is committed to helping her community move forward.
Your comment that Lee looks constipated on Traveler made me chuckle. I think Lee looks defeated, hat in hand and eyes looking downward. It would be interesting to know what Shrady was wanting to convey. Regardless, I agree with melting down this statue. Monuments and statues are to honor and memorialize those for whom they’re made. So many Confederate statues were made during Jim Crow, then later rationalized via reconciliation. Lee was, and always will be on, as Frederick Douglass said, “the wrong side,” and, “it is no part of our duty to confound right with wrong.”
"There are but two parties now, Traitors & Patriots and I want hereafter to be ranked with the latter." --- Ulysses S. Grant, Apr. 1861. Keeping in mind what these monuments represent, they should be kept in Confederate museums. I'm being generous.
The Smithsonian Museums on the national mall are specialty museums catering to different interests. Two years ago, I drove to Montgomery, Ala. to visit the Equal Rights Initiative museum and got exactly what I was looking for --- because it was more precise. Confederate museums would cater to specific mindsets who would be free to interpret these objects as they please.
Thanks for the follow up. I agree that the Smithsonian and EJI are first-rate institutions, but a museum devoted to celebrating the Confederacy would only place these monuments in a Lost Cause context. Placing some of them in a more professional setting is a much better choice if you are at all interested in visitors being exposed to a more nuanced interpretation.
Lost Cause context. Hadn't thought of that. Hmmmm.....tossed it around in my head and I come to that conclusion also. Those who choose to, will have a place to gather for celebrations even (especially) if that wasn't the original intent. Thanks.
I think it is important to recognize that Confederate monuments are now on display in museums throughout the country. The exhibits cover a good deal of interpretive ground. The question that more and more museums need to address is HOW they can best be displayed to educate the public.
I too look forward to visiting the Whitney Plantation at some point.
Yes, I think I've said before that there are any number of challenges when it comes to interpreting Civil War battlefields like Gettysburg, with or without Confederate monuments. I think it is important to recognize that Professor Hancock believes that the monuments should stay and that they should be interpreted.
There are no easy solutions for what to do with any of the Confederate statues, but this one I think deserves additional care because of its extraordinary pedigree. The Lee in Charlottesville was created by Henry Shrady, one of the leading sculptors of his time. His most notable work is the Ulysses S. Grant monument in Washington, D.C, which commemorates Union victory in the Civil War. Shrady, a New Yorker, expressed admiration for Lee despite the fact that his father had been Grant's primary physician in his last days. Shrady's statue of George Washington at Valley Forge in Brooklyn is a tour de force work of public art, and many smaller pieces of his are in major museum collections.
Thanks for the response. I agree that Shady was a talented sculptor, but his Lee monument is not one of my favorites. In fact, as I have said before, Lee looks constipated atop Traveler.
More importantly, the fact that this particular statue was at the center of a deadly white nationalist rally must be considered. It cannot--as I have maintained--simply be handed over to another community for reasons having to do with physical preservation alone.
Not all of these monuments can or should be saved. The Jefferson School's plans for the Lee statue are entirely appropriate in my view.
The fact that the statue was the symbolic flashpoint for a deadly rally is, of course, a compelling argument. Artistic merit, less so. Kevin, I'm not sure what I think should happen here, I'm just not comfortable with melting down statues. That said, there are far more important battles to be fought at the moment.
Thanks for the follow up. I agree. These are difficult questions and the decisions made in these communities will never satisfy everyone. It's messy, but that is to be expected given the fact that individuals/organizations are deeply invested in certain outcomes not to mention the politics of public memory.
Professor Levin - Two things: Thankful for your continuing efforts in shedding light on so many different aspects of the Civil War and the way in which we remember it. And also grateful for your ability to maintain an air of calmness and rationality when someone disputes your opinion(s). That is such a rarity on the Internet, where venom and vitriol reign supreme. So glad I subscribed to your Substack columns.
As the statue seems to be one of the few of Lee that comes close to a work of art, one could be sad to see it go, except that, if it were displayed anywhere, it should be doused with red paint to symbolize the blood shed by racists, anti-Semites and white supremacists in its defense. I still hope that a statue of Heather Heyer will take its place on the currently empty plinth, but that's a decision for Heyer's fellow citizens of Charlottesville.
I think the Jackson monument has some artistic qualities and I am pleased to see that it is now on display in Los Angeles, but I've always thought the Lee monument was just downright ugly.
My opinion is of little value because I am 80 years old and basically come from another time.
However, since you asked I will say that the characterization of that rally in Charlottesville as being racist and white supreme ( can’t spell the word and autocorrect offers no suggestions).
That is simply one view but certainly not the only one.
I am an educated older lady, mother , grandmother, and at that time I was living with my 99 year old mother to make sure she could stay in her home rather a nursing home. I consider myself a Libertarian.
If I had not been out of town I would have gone to the rally to save the statue of Robert E Lee. He was an extraordinary man with the life task of making very hard decisions.
He probably was difficult man in many ways.
But calling attention to the past, making black people out to be victims, excoriating the men who fought and died to make this country free ( for everyone eventually) is wrong. It is destructive. Divide and conquer. If you are a teacher you must know this is true.
We must unite. We must forgive each other for our differences. That is what makes people interesting; their difference!
Oh I could write a book about this or at least a blog post. But it is wearying to keep talking about coming together with folks who are determined to drive away anyone who doesn’t spout the party line.
Ma'am, certainly an educated woman knows that those who ignore the past are condemned to repeat it. Three quarters of a million military deaths plus the subsequent Jim Crow and thousands of lynchings are quite enough for me.
If you think that the Charlottesville riot was not in the service of white supremacy, what do you think the marchers meant when they chanted "Jews will not replace us" - especially considering that Jewish people are not trying to replace anybody? And why were admittedly white-spremacist organizations taking part?
Finally, disagreeing with a person's opinions is not "driving anyone away".
My only comment to this is that although we must unite and move and so forth you can’t do that without coming to grips with the past. Societies that have examined their past such as Chile and Argentina (following their brutal military regimes) have been able to have reconciliation and move on. Those who haven’t like Spain (who have tried to avoid any discussion of what happened in the Franco regime) haven’t. We need to have truth before there can be any reconciliation.
Thank you very much for taking the time to respond. It looks like we are going to have to agree to disagree on a number of issues.
As a historian and educator I certainly believe that Robert E. Lee is important to study and understand. I highly recommend Allen Guelzo's new biography if you are looking for a good read, but that is very different from whether he should be celebrated in a public space.
I am not in any way trying to make Black people look like victims. Quite the opposite. Over the past few years we've seen African Americans take the lead in cities and towns across the country calling for the removal of these monuments.
I watched the rally live on television and saw the Nazi flags and heard the anti-semitic chants of the crowd. These were white supremacists pure and simple.
Once again, I thank you for taking the time to respond.
Too ridiculous. I’m thankful you’re advising Dr. Douglas.
“The plaintiffs have asked a judge to issue a permanent injunction that would force the city to pay to restore and repair the Lee statue to its original state as a sculpture. If it cannot be repaired and restored, they wrote in the lawsuit, the bronze ingots from the statue should be repurposed into a Civil War cannon that will be donated to display on a Civil War battlefield.” https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2022/06/26/charlottesville-robert-lee-statue-lawsuit/
Just to be clear, it's been a couple years since I corresponded with Dr. Douglas. I just wanted to make the point that she is a professional and is committed to helping her community move forward.
Your comment that Lee looks constipated on Traveler made me chuckle. I think Lee looks defeated, hat in hand and eyes looking downward. It would be interesting to know what Shrady was wanting to convey. Regardless, I agree with melting down this statue. Monuments and statues are to honor and memorialize those for whom they’re made. So many Confederate statues were made during Jim Crow, then later rationalized via reconciliation. Lee was, and always will be on, as Frederick Douglass said, “the wrong side,” and, “it is no part of our duty to confound right with wrong.”
"There are but two parties now, Traitors & Patriots and I want hereafter to be ranked with the latter." --- Ulysses S. Grant, Apr. 1861. Keeping in mind what these monuments represent, they should be kept in Confederate museums. I'm being generous.
Hi Gary,
What do you mean by "Confederate museums"? If they are to be relocated to museums, shouldn't they be in places where they can be properly interpreted?
The Smithsonian Museums on the national mall are specialty museums catering to different interests. Two years ago, I drove to Montgomery, Ala. to visit the Equal Rights Initiative museum and got exactly what I was looking for --- because it was more precise. Confederate museums would cater to specific mindsets who would be free to interpret these objects as they please.
Thanks for the follow up. I agree that the Smithsonian and EJI are first-rate institutions, but a museum devoted to celebrating the Confederacy would only place these monuments in a Lost Cause context. Placing some of them in a more professional setting is a much better choice if you are at all interested in visitors being exposed to a more nuanced interpretation.
Lost Cause context. Hadn't thought of that. Hmmmm.....tossed it around in my head and I come to that conclusion also. Those who choose to, will have a place to gather for celebrations even (especially) if that wasn't the original intent. Thanks.
I think it is important to recognize that Confederate monuments are now on display in museums throughout the country. The exhibits cover a good deal of interpretive ground. The question that more and more museums need to address is HOW they can best be displayed to educate the public.
I too look forward to visiting the Whitney Plantation at some point.
Yes, I think I've said before that there are any number of challenges when it comes to interpreting Civil War battlefields like Gettysburg, with or without Confederate monuments. I think it is important to recognize that Professor Hancock believes that the monuments should stay and that they should be interpreted.
There are no easy solutions for what to do with any of the Confederate statues, but this one I think deserves additional care because of its extraordinary pedigree. The Lee in Charlottesville was created by Henry Shrady, one of the leading sculptors of his time. His most notable work is the Ulysses S. Grant monument in Washington, D.C, which commemorates Union victory in the Civil War. Shrady, a New Yorker, expressed admiration for Lee despite the fact that his father had been Grant's primary physician in his last days. Shrady's statue of George Washington at Valley Forge in Brooklyn is a tour de force work of public art, and many smaller pieces of his are in major museum collections.
Hi Brian,
Thanks for the response. I agree that Shady was a talented sculptor, but his Lee monument is not one of my favorites. In fact, as I have said before, Lee looks constipated atop Traveler.
More importantly, the fact that this particular statue was at the center of a deadly white nationalist rally must be considered. It cannot--as I have maintained--simply be handed over to another community for reasons having to do with physical preservation alone.
Not all of these monuments can or should be saved. The Jefferson School's plans for the Lee statue are entirely appropriate in my view.
Thanks again for taking the time to comment.
The fact that the statue was the symbolic flashpoint for a deadly rally is, of course, a compelling argument. Artistic merit, less so. Kevin, I'm not sure what I think should happen here, I'm just not comfortable with melting down statues. That said, there are far more important battles to be fought at the moment.
Thanks for the follow up. I agree. These are difficult questions and the decisions made in these communities will never satisfy everyone. It's messy, but that is to be expected given the fact that individuals/organizations are deeply invested in certain outcomes not to mention the politics of public memory.
Professor Levin - Two things: Thankful for your continuing efforts in shedding light on so many different aspects of the Civil War and the way in which we remember it. And also grateful for your ability to maintain an air of calmness and rationality when someone disputes your opinion(s). That is such a rarity on the Internet, where venom and vitriol reign supreme. So glad I subscribed to your Substack columns.
Hi Richard,
Thanks so much for the positive feedback. Great to have you on board here.
As the statue seems to be one of the few of Lee that comes close to a work of art, one could be sad to see it go, except that, if it were displayed anywhere, it should be doused with red paint to symbolize the blood shed by racists, anti-Semites and white supremacists in its defense. I still hope that a statue of Heather Heyer will take its place on the currently empty plinth, but that's a decision for Heyer's fellow citizens of Charlottesville.
I think the Jackson monument has some artistic qualities and I am pleased to see that it is now on display in Los Angeles, but I've always thought the Lee monument was just downright ugly.
He looks constipated. :-)
well, he probably was.
You are clearly so prejudiced that no one should take your views seriously.
Hi Bonnie,
Thanks for the feedback. I wonder if you could say a bit more when you have the time. Thanks.
Goodness! That was a quick response!
My opinion is of little value because I am 80 years old and basically come from another time.
However, since you asked I will say that the characterization of that rally in Charlottesville as being racist and white supreme ( can’t spell the word and autocorrect offers no suggestions).
That is simply one view but certainly not the only one.
I am an educated older lady, mother , grandmother, and at that time I was living with my 99 year old mother to make sure she could stay in her home rather a nursing home. I consider myself a Libertarian.
If I had not been out of town I would have gone to the rally to save the statue of Robert E Lee. He was an extraordinary man with the life task of making very hard decisions.
He probably was difficult man in many ways.
But calling attention to the past, making black people out to be victims, excoriating the men who fought and died to make this country free ( for everyone eventually) is wrong. It is destructive. Divide and conquer. If you are a teacher you must know this is true.
We must unite. We must forgive each other for our differences. That is what makes people interesting; their difference!
Oh I could write a book about this or at least a blog post. But it is wearying to keep talking about coming together with folks who are determined to drive away anyone who doesn’t spout the party line.
Ma'am, certainly an educated woman knows that those who ignore the past are condemned to repeat it. Three quarters of a million military deaths plus the subsequent Jim Crow and thousands of lynchings are quite enough for me.
If you think that the Charlottesville riot was not in the service of white supremacy, what do you think the marchers meant when they chanted "Jews will not replace us" - especially considering that Jewish people are not trying to replace anybody? And why were admittedly white-spremacist organizations taking part?
Finally, disagreeing with a person's opinions is not "driving anyone away".
My only comment to this is that although we must unite and move and so forth you can’t do that without coming to grips with the past. Societies that have examined their past such as Chile and Argentina (following their brutal military regimes) have been able to have reconciliation and move on. Those who haven’t like Spain (who have tried to avoid any discussion of what happened in the Franco regime) haven’t. We need to have truth before there can be any reconciliation.
Thank you very much for taking the time to respond. It looks like we are going to have to agree to disagree on a number of issues.
As a historian and educator I certainly believe that Robert E. Lee is important to study and understand. I highly recommend Allen Guelzo's new biography if you are looking for a good read, but that is very different from whether he should be celebrated in a public space.
I am not in any way trying to make Black people look like victims. Quite the opposite. Over the past few years we've seen African Americans take the lead in cities and towns across the country calling for the removal of these monuments.
I watched the rally live on television and saw the Nazi flags and heard the anti-semitic chants of the crowd. These were white supremacists pure and simple.
Once again, I thank you for taking the time to respond.