With the Kimmel thing and the march to take away our liberties I think we are inexorably heading towards conflict of some sort. I have always hated guns but I’m now seriously thinking I may need to apply for one.
The closest we came to a coup to overthrow the government was January 6 and the "Plot Against America" that tried to recruit Marine Corps General and twice Medal of Honor recipient (turned ardent pacifist) as the "Man on Horseback." Instead, he exposed the plot.
I think we are closer to those, rather than Shiloh or Chickamauga.
We’re already there, but perhaps it’s more analogous to the “Cold War” with the Soviet Union. The divisions in this country are intractable with about 50% viewing this country one way and 50% another. Very little is being done to heal this wound and as long as that state of play continues, the wound will fester. Will it get “hot”? In that brother is fighting kinetically against brother? I hope not. But the kindling for the fire is there and it just needs a spark to ignite it.
We can certainly reflect on the level of violence and discord that we've witnessed within a rich historical context and without referencing the Civil War or possibility of civil war.
We had our own brand of American fascism in the 1930s. Many of the same arguments and beliefs MAGA uses today are the same as American fascists of the 1930s. I think that’s a stronger parallel than the Civil War.
I am not sure I buy the similarities between now and the 1850s. The states no longer have their own military forces on a par with the federal army and the political/social and economic issues are in my opinion different. I think if the military and government employees in general adhere to the legal orders doctrine I don’t think it is possible.
But don’t be to quick to dismiss the similarities between now and 1930-1936 or so, Especially the summer of 1932. Much of the national economy had stopped. You had veterans rioting in the streets of DC and you had the Army trying to corral them. This is the summe of the famous newsreel footage of troops manning a machine gun emplacement at the entrance to the White House.
Out of this you got Father Coughlin and Huey Long. The latter Roosevelt saw as a serious threat to democracy and a serious threat to his nomination in I think 1936. And of course Long was taken down by a lone nut with a gun. Was revolution from the right really brewing in the US of the early 1930s? I don’t know, but at a superficial level I will say it appeared to many who. today we would call influencers that the answer was yes. If the economy continues to deteriorate, and the government continues its current internal efforts. At political oppression and things continue heating up in Europe, all stressors I don’t think the Trump administration can handle who knows where this goes
The 1930s are an excellent parallel. Hopefully our liberals learn the lessons from how their German counterparts paved the way for Nazi rule but I am not optimistic.
Thank you for that thought provoking perspective. I think one of the differences between then and now is the wide proliferation of “information” and the failed experiment in “democratizing information” via the internet and specifically social media. The weaponization and monetization of unvetted information (typically opinion or aspiration masquerading as fact), unfettered by traditional guardrails of integrity and accountability is a dangerous phenomenon and tool to incite fear and rage.
I'm reading the new biography of Charles Sumner, by Zaakir Tameez, at the moment, and it's dripping with relevance to current events, so your caution about reading too much into one period in history is, well, timely. Thank you.
This is an excellent essay, and comes at just the right time. It's important that we de-escalate. Nevertheless, we can say that while the military phase of the American Civil War did indeed come to an end with the defeat of the Confederacy, nonetheless, the culture wars may in great part be regarded as a continuation of that conflict in a different mode. The right wing of the Republican party has, at least since Ronald Reagan, harbored that Confederate desire for revenge that we find in "the South will rise again" slogan. Hence the alliance of racism, mendacious revisionism about American slavery, hatred of the federal government, Evangelical extremism and gun violence that's an essential part of the MAGA project.
Part of my point today is that we can see that everything today is a continuation of everything that came before. Serious students of history must be incredibly careful about how we mine the past for relevancy. Knee-jerk references to the Civil War era or 'looming civil war' don't get us far at all.
Oh, I agree. But nobody thinks the people waving Confederate flags at the January 6th. insurrection are serious students of history. They're the sort of folks who call the Civil War "the war of Northern aggression." As history, that's patently false. As a rhetorical figure in Confederate discourse, it's dangerously persuasive to a certain audience.
Yes, I'd say the left underestimates the failure of reconstruction and its role in forming the sense of enraged victimhood. Is that what you have in mind?
The left tends to collapse the history by arguing that nothing has changed since Reconstruction. This is typically based on an understanding of slavery as an “original sin” or as the “DNA” of the nation. Well, if that’s the case change is impossible so why bother.
I think the public would be well served if you *were* to accept requests to comment, since your knowledgeable perspective is clearly missing from these interviews and discussions.
I read “American Midnight: The Great War, A Violent Peace, & Democracy’s Forgotten Crisis” by Adam Hochshield in April and learned so much that was missing from my own knowledge and understanding of American history. Its parallels with our current situation struck me as much more relevant than those of the American Civil War…
“A groundbreaking work of narrative history, American Midnight recalls these horrifying yet inspiring four years [1917-1921], when some brave Americans strove to keep their fractured country democratic, while ruthless others stimulated toxic currents of racism, nativism, red-baiting, and contempt for the rule of law — poisons that feel ominously familiar today.”
I've been lucky to have had the opportunity to comment extensively on current events through media contact. I just choose not to comment on this particular subject. AMERICAN MIDNIGHT is a wonderful book and I recommend anything by Hochshield. He's such a good writer.
I grew up in the 60s, started college in 69 and never felt the country was headed towards civil conflict. Yes, we had massive disagreement on Vietnam (the defining conflict of my life) but when Nixon won there was no belief we were heading to civil war or anything like that.
Are we headed to civil conflict? I’m not sure but a study carried out by Professor Robert Pape disclosed that 39% of Democrats thought it was permissible to use violence to remove Trump and 24% of Republicans thought it was permissible to use the military to curb demonstrations. Those are not healthy numbers.
Maybe I’m naive but I feel there is more that unites us than divides us. Divisions have been exacerbated by social media, which I wish had never been created.
It would be interesting to see the polls that you reference compared with those in the past. Your last point is an important one and I don't think you are naive at all. In fact, I agree. Part of the problem is that our public discourse is so often drowned out by the most extreme voices and noxious commentary, beginning with the president.
With the Kimmel thing and the march to take away our liberties I think we are inexorably heading towards conflict of some sort. I have always hated guns but I’m now seriously thinking I may need to apply for one.
The closest we came to a coup to overthrow the government was January 6 and the "Plot Against America" that tried to recruit Marine Corps General and twice Medal of Honor recipient (turned ardent pacifist) as the "Man on Horseback." Instead, he exposed the plot.
I think we are closer to those, rather than Shiloh or Chickamauga.
We’re already there, but perhaps it’s more analogous to the “Cold War” with the Soviet Union. The divisions in this country are intractable with about 50% viewing this country one way and 50% another. Very little is being done to heal this wound and as long as that state of play continues, the wound will fester. Will it get “hot”? In that brother is fighting kinetically against brother? I hope not. But the kindling for the fire is there and it just needs a spark to ignite it.
We can certainly reflect on the level of violence and discord that we've witnessed within a rich historical context and without referencing the Civil War or possibility of civil war.
Agreed. There are many more near term examples.
We had our own brand of American fascism in the 1930s. Many of the same arguments and beliefs MAGA uses today are the same as American fascists of the 1930s. I think that’s a stronger parallel than the Civil War.
Importantly, people today want to talk about a civil war - in the 1850s, they talked about Union.
We've taken it for granted.
I am not sure I buy the similarities between now and the 1850s. The states no longer have their own military forces on a par with the federal army and the political/social and economic issues are in my opinion different. I think if the military and government employees in general adhere to the legal orders doctrine I don’t think it is possible.
But don’t be to quick to dismiss the similarities between now and 1930-1936 or so, Especially the summer of 1932. Much of the national economy had stopped. You had veterans rioting in the streets of DC and you had the Army trying to corral them. This is the summe of the famous newsreel footage of troops manning a machine gun emplacement at the entrance to the White House.
Out of this you got Father Coughlin and Huey Long. The latter Roosevelt saw as a serious threat to democracy and a serious threat to his nomination in I think 1936. And of course Long was taken down by a lone nut with a gun. Was revolution from the right really brewing in the US of the early 1930s? I don’t know, but at a superficial level I will say it appeared to many who. today we would call influencers that the answer was yes. If the economy continues to deteriorate, and the government continues its current internal efforts. At political oppression and things continue heating up in Europe, all stressors I don’t think the Trump administration can handle who knows where this goes
The 1930s are an excellent parallel. Hopefully our liberals learn the lessons from how their German counterparts paved the way for Nazi rule but I am not optimistic.
It's MAGA that includes Nazis in it's coalition, not the "liberals." Liberals tend not to engage in book banning and threats against the press.
Now if only we had a Rosa Luxemburg…
Thank you for that thought provoking perspective. I think one of the differences between then and now is the wide proliferation of “information” and the failed experiment in “democratizing information” via the internet and specifically social media. The weaponization and monetization of unvetted information (typically opinion or aspiration masquerading as fact), unfettered by traditional guardrails of integrity and accountability is a dangerous phenomenon and tool to incite fear and rage.
Thanks. I think you make an excellent point.
I'm reading the new biography of Charles Sumner, by Zaakir Tameez, at the moment, and it's dripping with relevance to current events, so your caution about reading too much into one period in history is, well, timely. Thank you.
It's a wonderful book. Enjoy.
De-escalation means not rushing to judgment, particularly when there is a paucity of actual evidence available to the general public.
It also means cooling it with the rush to find analogies. Until we can make use of a much broader pallet of such comparisons, let’s just stop.
This is an excellent essay, and comes at just the right time. It's important that we de-escalate. Nevertheless, we can say that while the military phase of the American Civil War did indeed come to an end with the defeat of the Confederacy, nonetheless, the culture wars may in great part be regarded as a continuation of that conflict in a different mode. The right wing of the Republican party has, at least since Ronald Reagan, harbored that Confederate desire for revenge that we find in "the South will rise again" slogan. Hence the alliance of racism, mendacious revisionism about American slavery, hatred of the federal government, Evangelical extremism and gun violence that's an essential part of the MAGA project.
Part of my point today is that we can see that everything today is a continuation of everything that came before. Serious students of history must be incredibly careful about how we mine the past for relevancy. Knee-jerk references to the Civil War era or 'looming civil war' don't get us far at all.
Oh, I agree. But nobody thinks the people waving Confederate flags at the January 6th. insurrection are serious students of history. They're the sort of folks who call the Civil War "the war of Northern aggression." As history, that's patently false. As a rhetorical figure in Confederate discourse, it's dangerously persuasive to a certain audience.
I agree, but I think the left also plays fast and loose with this history as well.
Yes, I'd say the left underestimates the failure of reconstruction and its role in forming the sense of enraged victimhood. Is that what you have in mind?
The left tends to collapse the history by arguing that nothing has changed since Reconstruction. This is typically based on an understanding of slavery as an “original sin” or as the “DNA” of the nation. Well, if that’s the case change is impossible so why bother.
I think the public would be well served if you *were* to accept requests to comment, since your knowledgeable perspective is clearly missing from these interviews and discussions.
I read “American Midnight: The Great War, A Violent Peace, & Democracy’s Forgotten Crisis” by Adam Hochshield in April and learned so much that was missing from my own knowledge and understanding of American history. Its parallels with our current situation struck me as much more relevant than those of the American Civil War…
“A groundbreaking work of narrative history, American Midnight recalls these horrifying yet inspiring four years [1917-1921], when some brave Americans strove to keep their fractured country democratic, while ruthless others stimulated toxic currents of racism, nativism, red-baiting, and contempt for the rule of law — poisons that feel ominously familiar today.”
I've been lucky to have had the opportunity to comment extensively on current events through media contact. I just choose not to comment on this particular subject. AMERICAN MIDNIGHT is a wonderful book and I recommend anything by Hochshield. He's such a good writer.
There will be no civil war. The republic will endure. It’s just that the costs to ensure it could continue to grow.
Thanks for this post.
I grew up in the 60s, started college in 69 and never felt the country was headed towards civil conflict. Yes, we had massive disagreement on Vietnam (the defining conflict of my life) but when Nixon won there was no belief we were heading to civil war or anything like that.
Are we headed to civil conflict? I’m not sure but a study carried out by Professor Robert Pape disclosed that 39% of Democrats thought it was permissible to use violence to remove Trump and 24% of Republicans thought it was permissible to use the military to curb demonstrations. Those are not healthy numbers.
Maybe I’m naive but I feel there is more that unites us than divides us. Divisions have been exacerbated by social media, which I wish had never been created.
It would be interesting to see the polls that you reference compared with those in the past. Your last point is an important one and I don't think you are naive at all. In fact, I agree. Part of the problem is that our public discourse is so often drowned out by the most extreme voices and noxious commentary, beginning with the president.
I wish it were like the 1850s, in that I'd feel more equipped to deal with it then.
I suppose the real lesson is that division has always been part of the American fabric, even if its manifestations necessarily evolve with the times